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New Artifact-Karlen's Circlet

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Re: New Artifact-Karlen's Circlet

Postby drathe » February 26th, 2013, 2:37 pm

Awesome to see a post and some good feedback.

My last couple groups have been using the 2x spells right from the start. The Wizard did start off over-powered, but eventually things balanced out as the other Heroes gathered gear and artifacts. In my many years of playing the game, I did notice the Wizard hoarding spells for use on a possible boss. A boss that may not even exist in a quest and therefore the spells weren't of extraordinary use. Since having double of all spells, the Wizard player has been fun for my group to play and they cast offensive and supporting spells throughout the quests instead of waiting until the (possible) boss. The Wizard now engages in battles because they have extra heal spells should things to poorly. (and they still do)

One of the reasons for the Circlet and Gems is to allow the wizard to grow along with the other Heroes instead of having the double spells right from the start. He is supposed to be a powerful wizard, so having lots of spells makes sense. This was a fairly simple way of allowing his magical strength to grow as the other Heroes' attack and defence grows. I do think it would be nice to have a second set of different elemental spells to add instead of more of the same, (i.e., three more water spells that have entirely new effects) but this was a simple way of taking what I already had (the spells) and progressing the wizard to double spells instead of starting out with more power than is needed. The double spells works really well in the tougher expansions. (which still need special tweaks here and there... I'm looking at you multiple Chaos Warrior Wandering Monsters!)

Our plan with Karlen's Circlet was to have two or three versions of the artifact. One with nine slots, one with 7 slots and possibly one with 5. This would allow GMs to limit the Wizard's power if they personally wish to limit the Wizard's magic, and allow for some mix-and-match of the stones and their abilities. GMs could easily create their own stones with entirely new effects if they wish.
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Re: New Artifact-Karlen's Circlet

Postby Daedalus » February 28th, 2013, 2:23 pm

I can see double spells being too much at the start. You have come up with a simple way of handling spell progression--kudos. I'm interested in hearing if you think double spells wouldn't be enough at some point, say somewhere after the BQP. By then, the Elf and Barbarian have gotten some artifact upgrades. The Dark Company and fan-made Quests that follow at even higher levels difficulty (ex. Vengeance for Vengeance) would probably need an even higher-powered Wizard, right? At what point would new artifacts need to be supplied so that he could match such Quests?
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Re: New Artifact-Karlen's Circlet

Postby AerynB » February 28th, 2013, 2:46 pm

Maybe the circlet can be "blessed" at some point and give the Wizard the ability to cast each spell THREE times. ;) That would be simple, but maybe it would be more fun to create brand new elemental spells. Maybe enhanced versions of the original 12, or maybe Hero versions of some Chaos spells--I'm looking at you, Firestorm--that's such a cool spell. :) I've never gotten to play the harder quest packs like MotM, FH, or DC. It'll be neat to finally play them with the updated HQ-Vassal module. :D


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Re: New Artifact-Karlen's Circlet

Postby AerynB » March 2nd, 2013, 10:45 am

Daedalus wrote:I can see double spells being too much at the start. You have come up with a simple way of handling spell progression--kudos. I'm interested in hearing if you think double spells wouldn't be enough at some point, say somewhere after the BQP. By then, the Elf and Barbarian have gotten some artifact upgrades. The Dark Company and fan-made Quests that follow at even higher levels difficulty (ex. Vengeance for Vengeance) would probably need an even higher-powered Wizard, right? At what point would new artifacts need to be supplied so that he could match such Quests?

New thought: What about the Wizard learning the BQP spell scroll spells as actual spells? Some of those are really neat. They could be "Ice Spells" or something. Though, you'd have to come up with some consistent artwork to put on the back of the card. Maybe some part of the colored Frozen Horror booklet cover could be cut out and used for the card back.


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Re: New Artifact-Karlen's Circlet

Postby Daedalus » March 4th, 2013, 1:25 am

Those published, player-friendly spells have been sitting there forever, yet it never occured to me that they should be used as a spell group. :shock: Like. I'd vote for Chill, Ice Bridge and Warmth. They aren't overpowered, but they are useful in general Quests. Then again, maybe a more powerful Ice Storm would be a good idea at higher Quest levels (see paragraph below).

After that, I'd go with a seperate artifact that enhanced spells with greater power. In effect new spells are derived from the previous ones (I've done some before). That's just my opinion, though. New spells, either from new groups, or added to existing groups would also work just as well with some printing. (Dwayne Agin and others have already have done the work, found in the Inn's card files.)




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Re: New Artifact-Karlen's Circlet

Postby Sjeng » March 4th, 2013, 7:39 am

Daedalus wrote:Those published, player-friendly spells have been sitting there forever, yet it never occured to me that they should be used as a spell group.

That's because they're chaos spells. But yeah, you could select three from those that are not too "dark side", and make them into Hero spells, called Ice Spells.
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Re: New Artifact-Karlen's Circlet

Postby Daedalus » March 4th, 2013, 11:59 am

I mean just scroll spells that AerynB was referring to. They are found at the back of the BQP as small Artifact Cards. I'm not talking about the Chaos spells also found in the BQP. Oh, wait--I see what you mean. Chill, Skate, and Ice Storm are also Chaos spells. For that matter, the Chaos spell Soothe greatly resembles the Warmth scroll.

For me, exclusive Chaos spells such as Mind Freeze should be treated seperately. If you wanna let a Wizard use Chaos spells, I say attach a penalty. I don't see the exclusive Chaos spells as Hero friendly; rather, I see them as Morcar/Zargon friendly, unless they are specifically also presented as Hero spells. Chill is an artifact card intended for Hero use without penalty. (Dispell also comes to mind as a spell expample outside of the BQP.) So no Chaos penalty should be attached for a spell from a Hero spell group or an artifact card.

So Chill, Soothe, and Ice Bridge work okay in my opinion, as they are artifact cards with an Ice spell theme. I'd go with Psychic recovery over Chill to keep the group more seperate from the Choas spells, but it doesn't fit the theme as well. Also, an Ice spell that damages is more often useful and more fun. If Ice Storm was added in, I'd consider a penalty for balance, or key it to an artifact that had limited use. I'd only allow it "as is" if the whole game was balanced for higher power. That would be cool, but requires a lot more work.

Just a thought--what spell group would Psychic Recovery fall under, if any? Or does it simply belong to the Ice group, as it is the opposite number of Mind Freeze?
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Re: New Artifact-Karlen's Circlet

Postby AerynB » March 10th, 2013, 12:57 pm

Sorry it took me so long to reply, but let's see... first off, yes, I was referring to the Spell Scrolls in the BQP that have the Artifact image on the back of the cards. I wasn't thinking of giving the Wizard the BQP Chaos spells. But like you, I didn't realize how similar those 12 spells are to each other. They're definitely mirrors of each other. Chill and Chill, Ice Storm and Ice Storm, Skate and Skate. Soothe and Warmth are similar, Mind Freeze and Psychic Recovery are opposites but they sorta deal with the same thing -- the mind, and Ice Wall and Ice Bridge are different but deal with similar things -- the Magic Ice tiles. I guess I have a tendency to make things easier on the Heroes, so at first I'd probably give the Wizard actual spell versions of each of those spell scrolls (try to make a new card with a cool Ice Spell image on the back and picture where the spell scroll image is on the front), but you all are probably right. Starting off with just three spells is probably better. If I want the Wizard to have more, I can just tweak it later. ;)

As for the penalty for using a Chaos Spell, I don't think that's necessary. Look at Ball of Flame. Is it a Fire Spell or a Chaos Spell? There are a few spells that blur the line so to speak. I guess when I suggested creating new Elemental Spells for the Wizard, I meant looking at the Chaos Spells for a little creative inspiration. Yes, some of them are pretty powerful, but I think if we're using new spells to help improve the Wizard (like special weapons and armor improve the other Heroes), then I think it's alright if the new spells are also pretty powerful. Hmm... I'm not sure I'm being very clear.

Lastly, I think it's alright if Psychic Recovery is in the Ice Spell group. I don't think there's anything in the Heal Body spell's wording that links it to the Earth Spell group, for example. :2cents:


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Re: New Artifact-Karlen's Circlet

Postby sajungzak » October 10th, 2013, 2:17 am

I think it's the best idea I've heard to help out the wizard on the beginning quests. Keeps it simple and doesn't break any of the rules.

I made some of my own changes here
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0hObo_ ... sp=sharing

The circlet has five slots and there are six gems. 4 spell groups and 2 stat increases

drathe said he would be able to add it to the Website and will reformat the two new ones I made (and the circlet itself) to match the others on the sheet.8-)




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Re: New Artifact-Karlen's Circlet

Postby Sjeng » October 10th, 2013, 12:18 pm

Nice! I like your work, and your cats :D
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