Advancement - how to do it?

[el_flesh]

I should very much like the opportunity one day to test Ken's sausage!

I was Raughing Out Roud when I rote it!
_______________________________________________________________________

There's quite a bit of different house rules being bandied about back and forth these days.
It makes for great ideas.
If several of us ever do get together for massive online "HQ", the DM will have to let us all know about them!

[Jafazo]

I strongly discourage this presented system for Hero advancement and I'll explain why in a minute. In my opinion, the first thing you need to ask yourself is "Why implement an advancement feature in the first place?" The answer to this is usually the same for most of us, "Because existing content is getting old and boring and we want something more, something new." But here's the main problem with an answer like that, Hero Quest is already its own balanced system. It was made and published with a rule-set that was officially considered, balanced. This means that if we add stuff, we run the risk of unbalancing the game, therefore, our custom content has to be self sufficient and should be balanced on its own. This system is not self sufficiently balanced and here are a few reasons why...

1. There are no cap on Advancements. This means that you'll eventually be faced with overpowered Heroes. Even if you justify this advancement method with the excuse that it takes 1d6 x5 days to advance, effectively slowing Hero advancement to a crawl, the fact still remains that it's legally possible to pump your Hero up to ridiculous strengths.

2. Will the Heroes NEED this advancement to overcome future challenges? If the answer is no, you're risking unbalancing the game because Heroes will be able to reach higher levels of strength than originally intended whereas the rest of the game (monsters) will not. You'll need to compensate monsters with some means of advancing if the answer is yes.

3. I personally dislike the Training Time inclusion where players obtain their advances at a rate of 1d6x5 days. This rule seems to me like it just delays the inevitable, that Heroes can eventually become too powerful. SLOWING advancement doesn't prevent it. You need to stop it with caps. Also, the randomness element is just not fair. A player with poor luck might always roll higher numbers whereas a player with better luck might only be waiting 5 days for his advancements. If you absolutely have to, place a daily delaying requirement that is fair for all players and doesn't reward the lucky player. If Heroes will NEED these advancements as stated above, you're risking whether or not they'll even be ready for future challenges by introducing this randomizing rule.

4. I dislike the Weapon Expertise rule because it allows players to pay gold so they can start bending rules. Letting Heroes move, attack, then continue moving will also eventually demand cumbersome elaboration about when it would be Ok to do it. If there's one thing I fear as a DM it's messing with base rules. It'd be like letting Heroes pay to Move, search for Traps then keep moving or Move, search for Treasure then keep moving. Let's stay away from this rule bending privilege. You'll get frustrated when Heroes start moving into a room, killing one monster, then strategically moving back to the doorway so only one monster can attack him on your turn.

5. I feel the Weapon Expertise advancement attribute is horribly under priced. 100 gold for a combat die!? Hero Quests combat dice are very sensitive to where 5 is extremely powerful and 3 is the average. A combat die should be one of the more expensive advancement attributes. I'd price this one at about 1000 gold. The weapon type restriction seems entirely pointless because Hero Quests weapons of choice are limited so players will simply apply this advancement to the weapon that gives them the best attack. Can you honestly see the Barbarian paying for advancement in his use of the dagger or great axe?

6. Armor Expertise is too cheap as well in cost and is overpowered. As a GM, I wouldn't be very happy if the party's Dwarf adds a +4 Combat Dice advancement bonus to defend on top of his 1 Combat Die to defend helmet. A +5 Combat Die to defend helmet? Yeah right... no.

7. Follow-Through Kill compliments and fully supports the unbalanced nature of Weapon Expertise beautifully. I can think of no better way to give your GM a heart attack than to skyrocket your Attack Dice to 10 and dispatch not only one monster on your turn but every single monster surrounding you.

8. Just when I thought we'd reached our overpowered pinnacle, Learn Magic steps in and kicks me while I'm down. A barbarian with Weapon Expertise in his Great Axe who can cleave 4 monsters in one turn and who can step into a room and engulf his enemies with a Firestorm spell or self heal himself. It hurts, I can't take much more, nnngh... Magic Expertise fully supports this unbalanced advancements too and Multiple Spells is the randomized equivalent of owning infinite Magic Wands albeit it at something of a risk factor.

I hate to shoot this idea down without contributing suggestions to make it better, but in truth, this idea in particular is going to require a lot of modification and I'm currently running numerous projects at a time so devoting too much time to sharpening fellow gamers ideas would be too time consuming. I will, however, push this idea in the right direction with some basic suggestions and those are as follows.

A. Put level caps on all of these Advancement Attributes and MENTION that they don't stack. Allow Heroes to obtain a maximum number of advancement attributes too. My suggestion is 2 per Hero. Don't let any of them be purchased more than once. See how it does in your game, then, if it works, slowly raise some of the caps.

B. Price the Combat dice at 1000 gold and remove the specific weapon limitation. Allow this Advancement to only apply whenever the Hero fights with an equipped weapon from the Armory, so Heroes fighting unarmed don't benefit from the extra combat die.

C. Remove all specified armor piece advancements and create one single Defend Die attribute that will give Heroes one Combat Die to defend, period. Allow that advancement to only apply as long as the Hero is wearing at least one piece of armor, whether it be a helmet, shield or body armor.

D. Eliminate Follow Through, Move and Kill, Magic Expertise and Multiple Spells.

E. Restrict Learn Magic to magic casting Heroes, specifically, the Wizard and the Elf. Give the Hero only one additional spell from his already known batch of spells. So they can basically cast any spell they know twice per quest.

F. Your insinuation that the original quest pack rewards Heroes with a total of 639 gold coins is plain wrong. I started tallying gold coin rewards and about half way through the book got a total of 1,264 gold coins. Don't half ass your work. I stopped at this point and decided that if you want the actual total you should get it yourself, especially when you know where to look but don't bother to. Recalculate Hero obtained gold rewards per quest book, factor in cost then reevaluate your prices.

[torilen]

JAFAZO -

First off - the system you are referencing is 3 years old. I've done a lot of work since then, as have all the
rest of the players here at the inn.

Second - My reason for creating rules like this is to turn HQ into more of an actual role playing game. With
the simplistic rules system, HQ is great for any player, whether they are new to rpg's or expert rpg players.
I created rules that would add more to the game in the most simple way possible. That was my choice, and
any other player or Evil wizard here at the inn are welcome to take it or leave it.

Third - You say that we shouldn't mess with HQ because the rules are so balanced. Granted, for the most part
they are balanced well. But, if one really wants to make such an argument, I suggest you look at the European
rules that were published before you make such a statement. Each monster has only 1 BP - do you REALLY think
this is balanced? Really?

Fourth - The weapon and armor expertise costs were based on actual prices of weapons and armors.
Many of the weapons and armors increase by roughly 100 gold for each combat die they offer. So, really,
those costs are within reason - but again, I've done a lot of work on this in the last 3 years.

Fifth - You criticism of Barbarians using magic is just plain stupid, as the use of magic must be balanced
with weapon use. Someone casting magic would not be able to hold a battle axe at the same time. I'm sure
it is written somewhere in the 4 pages in this thread. If it is not...again, this is three years old, and aside from
that...most of us here automatically agree on how magic can be used with weapons and armor, so it is kind of
assumed that no caster would be holding a battle axe.

Sixth - if you are going to be so scathing and sarcastic in your criticism, I strongly suggest you read carefully
before you write. Most of the training offered in the referenced system has caps. Go back and read them and
you'll see. The 1d6 + 5 that you references several times has NOTHING TO DO with how long it takes a character
to complete their training. Again - go back and re-read it. The 1d6 + 5 simply tells the players how long between
each quest they have, and that roll is made by the GM. And most of all, your reference to the amount of money
heroes get within the first quest pack...again, GO BACK AND READ MORE CAREFULLY. I specifically say that the
639 or so gold is how much EACH hero would get at the end, if all the gold is split evenly. This does not include
any weapons or potions or other items that might be sold back through the quest pack...which is stated, as well,
if I remember.

Moral of the story - don't embarrass yourself so badly next time you want to seem high and mighty with your knowledge
of HeroQuest.

[torilen]

I should also mention that it is stated that the referenced system would require MY personal
list of weapons, equipment...and I think monsters and spells, as well. Really, highly advanced
heroes WOULD need much of the training provided, since I include powerful monsters and spells
in my personal lists.

Again - those might be a few years old, as well - I forget the last time I update those.

[Jafazo]

JAFAZO -

First off - the system you are referencing is 3 years old. I've done a lot of work since then, as have all the
rest of the players here at the inn.

Second - My reason for creating rules like this is to turn HQ into more of an actual role playing game. With
the simplistic rules system, HQ is great for any player, whether they are new to rpg's or expert rpg players.
I created rules that would add more to the game in the most simple way possible. That was my choice, and
any other player or Evil wizard here at the inn are welcome to take it or leave it.

Third - You say that we shouldn't mess with HQ because the rules are so balanced. Granted, for the most part
they are balanced well. But, if one really wants to make such an argument, I suggest you look at the European
rules that were published before you make such a statement. Each monster has only 1 BP - do you REALLY think
this is balanced? Really?

Fourth - The weapon and armor expertise costs were based on actual prices of weapons and armors.
Many of the weapons and armors increase by roughly 100 gold for each combat die they offer. So, really,
those costs are within reason - but again, I've done a lot of work on this in the last 3 years.

Fifth - You criticism of Barbarians using magic is just plain stupid, as the use of magic must be balanced
with weapon use. Someone casting magic would not be able to hold a battle axe at the same time. I'm sure
it is written somewhere in the 4 pages in this thread. If it is not...again, this is three years old, and aside from
that...most of us here automatically agree on how magic can be used with weapons and armor, so it is kind of
assumed that no caster would be holding a battle axe.

Sixth - if you are going to be so scathing and sarcastic in your criticism, I strongly suggest you read carefully
before you write. Most of the training offered in the referenced system has caps. Go back and read them and
you'll see. The 1d6 + 5 that you references several times has NOTHING TO DO with how long it takes a character
to complete their training. Again - go back and re-read it. The 1d6 + 5 simply tells the players how long between
each quest they have, and that roll is made by the GM. And most of all, your reference to the amount of money
heroes get within the first quest pack...again, GO BACK AND READ MORE CAREFULLY. I specifically say that the
639 or so gold is how much EACH hero would get at the end, if all the gold is split evenly. This does not include
any weapons or potions or other items that might be sold back through the quest pack...which is stated, as well,
if I remember.

Moral of the story - don't embarrass yourself so badly next time you want to seem high and mighty with your knowledge
of HeroQuest.

2011 is kind of, relic.

I never said anyone shouldn't mess with HQ because the rules are balanced though.

Barbarians can use magic via officially approved spell scrolls in expansion packs. That wasn't my point.

I wasn't being scathing. Sorry you read it that way and took offense. Sarcastic in a joking manner, yes. Scathing, no.

And lastly, I'm not embarrassed. I know what I'm talking about, but I'm not trying to seem high and mighty about anything. Even if my response was outdated, it was pretty explanatory and thorough man. I don't fling ideas around all willy nilly trying to seem high and mighty. That would imply I seek some kind of praise and surely, I don't. Just replying with feedback, but you took offense to it. The articles a relic, dead, solutions have been made and implemented since then, then fine.

[mitchiemasha]

I love Follow Through rules. Simply because the Heroes and DM can have it. I just play tested my new rules write up for the first time today and Follow Through worked better for the DM than the Heroes.

I also love Move-Attack-Move... It says attack so that doesn't mean search for treasure or traps! I also balance this with the DM getting M-A-M on Goblins by default. Gives them a nice characteristic that suits them perfectly, slippery little buggers. Heroes get a M-A-M bonus on rolling a double 4. I've added doubles create effect!

I need to rework my exchange squares as this is what resulted in the Heroes getting totally annihilated, trapping the wizard etc. It did make for some great fun and unexpected twists.

All these rules i'd added I thought it would be unbalanced in favour of the Heroes but I was wrong. I did play test it on the TRIAL so that might of been partly to do! Using Uk 1bp monsters and very strategic Heroes I was surprised with the result. The dwarf nearly made it out after making an early retreat due to 1 remaining BP but was unfortunately slayed by the DM using a DM Token (AHQ mod) Wondering Monster on him in the final exit room, only 2 squares away from the stairs.

I agree with some of Jafazos points but they are probably the ones that have been changed or we've misunderstood.

[torilen]

Here are some links that may help anyone else who stumbles across this old thread:

My additions to HQ - equipment, weapons, armor, monsters, spells
viewtopic.php?f=58&t=1212


I have sort of moved away from the training and advancement idea for HQ and moved toward skill cards
instead. Typically, a character gets a card at the beginning of the game (fresh hero), and then one after
every three quests finished.
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=2040&p=32671#p32671

viewtopic.php?f=34&t=2142&p=32682#p32682

viewtopic.php?f=34&t=2059&p=34857#p34857

[mitchiemasha]

Ahh bloody hell, lol! more things i have to scour through and download. Was supposed to be having an early night tonight.

Loooks like you've done loads.

[Gold Bearer]

The way I'm doing it is advancing them to veterans, masters and legends (each with new and/or improved abilities) after they've completed a certain amount of quests. This also makes death scarier because they have to start from scratch.

I'm thinking of including another advancedment system to increase BP and MP along side it where they get experience by doing different things depending on he hero type. Brawlers would just get experience for kills (monsters would be wroth their BP=MP, making undead worth less because they're already dead), magicians would get points for spell casting effects (for example healing and encouraging them to take risks by letting their BP drop lower before they heal so they can get more XP), mixed class heroes would get XP for both but less for each and specialists get XP for using skills like disarming traps. They'd probably all get XP for kills but not as much as brawlers.

They could have to pay to train in a city for this type of progression as well. That would mean my troll slayer would have three completely seperate types of progression.

I wasn't being scathing. Sorry you read it that way and took offense. Sarcastic in a joking manner, yes. Scathing, no.

That's not how it reads. Besides, how balaned it is depends entirely on the amount and level of the monsters.

And lastly, I'm not embarrassed.

I would be if I'd written that.

I should very much like the opportunity one day to test Ken's sausage!

If a sentence ever needed grammatical edit, it's this one.

Seriously just laughed out loud.

Didn't even notice that until you pointed it out.

I didn't either.