Ye Olde Inn

Well, your friend better play now. Let us know. And as a repayment for that awesome fig, make him rent Labyrinth and watch it with you. Then your postings can finally bear some relevance.

Daedalus wrote:Well, your friend better play now. Let us know. And as a repayment for that awesome fig, make him rent Labyrinth and watch it with you. Then your postings can finally bear some relevance.

"Rent" ? I suppose you mean that as a punishment. I don't know any person that rents movies anymore instead of downloading them.
However, this thread almost got me to watching the movie myself, maybe I'll watch it this summer.

As for my friend playing...
There has been a shocking development that prevents us from playing, at least in a regular basis.
He lives in a different town and he was planning on moving to Athens for post-graduate studies, but (unfortunately for the gaming) he got a nice offer for a full-time job in his hometown so the plan for extra studies went down the drain.
I guess we'll set up a couple of games in the summer though. He really liked the figure.
I'm thinking of a 5-5 body-mind character, 2-2 att-def, with only ability a singing that heals 2 bp (and mp if necessary) for all heroes in the room.
That can be used only once in each quest, I hope it's not unbalanced.

For a Bad power I just thought of this:

Each round the Bard plays his instrument and sings all Heroes in the same room or hall may roll 1 extra defense and 1 attack dice per turn cycle. Of course this would preclude any actions other than movemnet for the Bard.

Another power I just thought of:
(bassed on old school AD&D) The Bard may attempt to charm a monster (not undead or demon) with thier songs. The monster must roll Mind and roll a black shield to avoid being charmed by the Bard and thus Conscripted into the Heroes cause. Roll a D 6 and add in the Bards Mind points to determine how many turn cycles the monster is under the Bards power. Of course once the monster takes a Body point of damage the Charm wears off, but for most monsters this is a non issue as 1 BP of damage is death.

cynthialee wrote:Another power I just thought of:
(bassed on old school AD&D) The Bard may attempt to charm a monster (not undead or demon) with thier songs. The monster must roll Mind and roll a black shield to avoid being charmed by the Bard and thus Conscripted into the Heroes cause. Roll a D 6 and add in the Bards Mind points to determine how many turn cycles the monster is under the Bards power. Of course once the monster takes a Body point of damage the Charm wears off, but for most monsters this is a non issue as 1 BP of damage is death.

I like this idea much better than the icreased stats for the heroes - comes more naturally to me that good music can "charm" someone rather than make him stronger/faster.

I would vote for this beeing the main power of the bard.
For balace I would opt for some minor modifications - The charm should only work as long as the bard is actually singing, and the body points should be considered further, as many players use the American rules.

So here's my version:
As long a the bard is singing (no actions other than movement, no hostile mini in adjactant square), monsters in the same room may be charmed. Undead are not affected (exept for vampires).
Starting to sing is an action (you cannot attack or search and then start singing at the end of your turn). The bard rolls one die and adds his mind points when starting singing - this is the power of his song and will be used until he stops singing. If he rolls a natural 1 or 2, the loud singing attracts a wandering monster (the song will be effective nevertheless)
Each monster in the same room or corridor must make a test before it can taking an action, including movement (in the evil wizard's turn) by overcoming the song's power with 1 die + it's mind points. If succesfull, it is handled in the normal way by the evil wizard. If not, it is handled by the bard's player (you see, this takes quite some dice rolling - that's why I wanted to have at least the bard roll for the "power" only once). A natural rolled 6 always succeeds. Creatures who have so much mind points that they would always succeed don't have to make the test - they are just too powerful to be charmed by mere music (however, monsters that are so numb-minded that thy would always loose, may still attampt to get a natural 6).
A monster that has been wounded before can never be charmed (by European rules, it is just dead; by American rules the GM has to track the wounds of the monsters anyway, so every monster with less than full body points is un-charmable).
The bard automatically stops singing if he takes on another action (except movement, but including opening a door), if attacked or wounded, or if an (uncharmed) monster steps into an adjactant square (even if not attacking). He may also stop singing voluntary by simply pronouncing it. He may stop one song and start another (e. g. if he has rolled a low "power") in the same turn, but each song will last at least until the next turn, so multiple rerolls in one turn are not possible.
If you use some rules for rewarding the killing of monsters, killing a charmed monster is not rewarded.
Clarifications:
A monster has to make the test only once in the evil wizard's turn (not for every action it takes).
A bard may start singing if he has moved in the same turn, even if this included opening a door (but not if he has fought, searched, or taken another "action"). As long as he's actually singing, however, he needs both hands to play his instrument, so he may move, but not open doors.

Some more ideas for bard powers:

The bard can earn money by singing in taverns etc. between adventures, so he may add 2d6 gold at the beginning of each quest. This is similar to going to the armory or alchemist - if the background story of a quest states that the heroes cannot go to the armory (e. g. because it follows directly after the quest before), the bard also can earn no money this way.

He may inspire his fellow heroes by singing, but not to increase their fighting stats, but rather to overcome effects as fear or the like. For exaple:
As long as the bard is singing (as in he rules statet above), any hero in the same room or corridor who is under a mind-affecting spell or condition (e. g. the chaos spells fear, command and sleep) can roll 1d6+5 at the beginning of his turn. If the result is lesser tha the "power" of teh song, the spell or condition is broken. This is cumulative to the possible breaking of the spell by the affected hero alone with his own mind points.

There may be "magic songs" which have special effects (even increasing fighting stats ), but these can be used only a certain number of imes per quest (cards should be used) and require a magical instrument.

If there are NPCs (Non player characters) of uncertain alignment in the quest, who may or may not team up with the heroes (e. g. a group of prisoners who may become hanchmen), the bard's song may also affect their reactions in a positive way. As there are no general rules for this kind of encounters in the basic game, but special rules are given in the relevant quest desctriptions, the players have to argee beforehand on how to make up this "positive reaction" in detail. As a rule of thump, an improvement of 1 on 1d6 or 20% should be maintained, so mercenaries would take 20% less money and a reaction that is based on a dice roll would be easier by one. Of course this requires the bard to be present in the same room and able to actually sing in this turn.

One problem with dealing with multiple monsters and a charm effect is there needs to be some way to track who is charmed, and who isn't. Some kind of counter is probably in order, but maybe positioning a monster with its back to the Bard would suffice.

To cut down on die rolling, I'd go with a simpler scheme: The Bard rolls the power of his song using a single red die, without adding his Mind score. If this result is greater than a monster's Mind, it is charmed. This power roll must be made on of each of the Bard's turns as long as the action is desired, so no tracking of the length of the song effect is necessary; weaker monsters will tend to be charmed longer, while a Bard who charms a Gargoyle for a turn is fortunate. Using this power works like casting a spell as far as taking an action and moving is concerned.

I'd stipulate that any monster with a Mind score may be charmed. That would include the Witchlord and the like.

A big concern I have is that this is a very powerful ability, so it's use needs to be limited. It might also need to be balanced with some other limitation, as the Bard's currently offered Body stat is 5 or 6. The simplest solution is to make it a Song card that may only be used once, like a spell. Going that route, it can even be limited to affecting just one monster, if enough other Song cards were provided, most likely two more.

If affecting multiple monsters has to be the effect of the power, then I'd suggest making it the only power--it's even more powerful than Hypnotic Gaze, as (potentially) multiple monsters are basically under a Dominate spell. Just one use would probably be fair, but if you want more milage out of it then limit the number of uses to at most the Bard's Mind score. Perhaps requiring a Mind Point to be spent for each use would work.

Another limitation could be to nix the Dominate ability in favor of just preventing monsters from attacking or casting spells, though they still could be moved by the Bard.

As for other balancing limitations with a musically powerful Bard, I think restricting weapon use to only those usable with a Shield could work. Maybe not allowing a Shield would be appropriate, as well.

Daedalus wrote:One problem with dealing with multiple monsters and a charm effect is there needs to be some way to track who is charmed, and who isn't. Some kind of counter is probably in order, but maybe positioning a monster with its back to the Bard would suffice.

When using the rule I stated in my last post, tracking is not necessary, as monsters do not stay charmed over multiple turns automatically. Each monster just makes it's test before it can move/make an action.

To cut down on die rolling, I'd go with a simpler scheme: The Bard rolls the power of his song using a single red die, without adding his Mind score. If this result is greater than a monster's Mind, it is charmed. This power roll must be made on of each of the Bard's turns as long as the action is desired, so no tracking of the length of the song effect is necessary; weaker monsters will tend to be charmed longer, while a Bard who charms a Gargoyle for a turn is fortunate. Using this power works like casting a spell as far as taking an action and moving is concerned.

Well, tracking of the length of any effect is not required with my method, either.
But as for cutting down dice rolls, it's certainly a good concept to have the monsters be affected just if their mind is lower than the song, without a test. If the bard rolls the power anew every turn, they also have a chance to break free. The only complain I would have is that the ability of the bard (his mind points) should somehow be in the calculation (so perhaps the song's power may be 1W6 + bard's mind points - 5 or the like. Would have to look up all the monsters' stats to see which value woulb be "balancced").
I also liked the idea of a test, representing the monsters' struggle against the bard's influence - but it surely would slow down the game a lot...

I'd stipulate that any monster with a Mind score may be charmed. That would include the Witchlord and the like.

Agreed

A big concern I have is that this is a very powerful ability, so it's use needs to be limited. It might also need to be balanced with some other limitation, as the Bard's currently offered Body stat is 5 or 6. The simplest solution is to make it a Song card that may only be used once, like a spell. Going that route, it can even be limited to affecting just one monster, if enough other Song cards were provided, most likely two more.

Yup, I think it's very powerful, and I thought of possible restrictions, too.
One that comes natural would be to forbid the bard all actions while singing, including movement. I'm not very musical myself, but I imagine playing an instrument is much harder when walking around. Or restrict movement to one square? As the bard's player still has monsters to move, he won't feel too restricted.
Giving him less body points is also a good idea to me, as is restricting his weapons choice. He's a refined artist, after all.
I wouldn't like to restrict the times he can sing per quest - can't think of a good game-world explantation. Also, why would only one be affected in a room full of monsters, who all can hear the song likewise?

If affecting multiple monsters has to be the effect of the power, then I'd suggest making it the only power--it's even more powerful than Hypnotic Gaze, as (potentially) multiple monsters are basically under a Dominate spell. Just one use would probably be fair, but if you want more milage out of it then limit the number of uses to at most the Bard's Mind score. Perhaps requiring a Mind Point to be spent for each use would work.

Well, so we can scrap the money earning by singing, though I liked the idea. But then again, it was just that - an idea. Not really important for the cahrakter.
The ability to use "magic songs" I would keep. The bard should need a magic instrument for this, which can be a quest item (perhaps at the end of the first campaign), and he has to find the notes for each magic song (and perhaps some powerfull songs my require a special instrument each). So he has the chance to become more powerful over time, just as the fighting heroes, who get better weapons and magic items. Of course, magic songs may use cards, and be sang only once per quest, just like spells.

Another limitation could be to nix the Dominate ability in favor of just preventing monsters from attacking or casting spells, though they still could be moved by the Bard.

You mean, the bard can control the monsters, but not use them to fight their former allies? Sounds OK.

As for other balancing limitations with a musically powerful Bard, I think restricting weapon use to only those usable with a Shield could work. Maybe not allowing a Shield would be appropriate, as well.

Well, of course.